Audrey Choi:
I'm Audrey Choi, CEO of the Morgan Stanley Institute for Sustainable Investing. We've spent the last five episodes of At Scale taking a closer look at things we undervalue, things we take for granted, honeybees, trees, soap, concrete, and soil. Each represents the opportunity to understand the complexity of the sustainability problems we face, how we got here, and how we build effective solutions.
Audrey Choi:
For the last episode of the season, we focus on an often overlooked but critical element in these solutions, the expertise of the people on the front lines of biodiversity loss, pollution, and climate change. They're often the most marginalized and the most vulnerable, but their knowledge is key to systemic and equitable change. So today, we meet business and community leaders who are finding inclusive ways to create climate resiliency and sustainable economies.
Audrey Choi:
We start with an award-winning entrepreneur who uses solar energy and local expertise to power social and environmental progress.
Harish Hande:
So my name is Harish Hande. I'm the CEO of Selco Foundation.
Audrey Choi:
Harish started Selco[1] in India, where he grew up. He noticed that the most disadvantaged groups, street vendors, farmers, day laborers, and rural women rarely had access to sustainable energy. They also suffered the most from air pollution, extreme weather, and economic instability. So fresh out of graduate school in the US, Harish eagerly approached the challenge of creating bespoke and affordable solar energy solutions for them, but he kept running into problems like this.
Harish Hande:
A typical example is a solar home lighting system. So you come up with a solution and then you excitedly go to them, and then I show the economics and Excel sheet and say, "This is what monthly you'll have to pay for it." And finally, the farmer will say, "But I earn once a year, that's in December. How do I pay for it?" So your whole theory of your Excel sheet goes out of the window and then you are lost, and you had unnecessarily spent two months focusing on the technology rather than the other parts of the system, which was very important.
Audrey Choi:
A woman selling fruit and vegetables from a street cart gave Harish another lesson in the failure of one-size-fits all payment plans.
Harish Hande:
The best lesson she told me was 300 rupees a month is expensive, but 10 rupees a day is fine. She was giving me a class on cash flows and how financial models need to be looked at from their point of view, from their cash flow perspective.
Audrey Choi:
These experiences taught Harish that if you want to create really effective solutions, you need to listen first. His clients, the most underserved communities in India and other developing countries, have a lot of strong ideas, but they're rarely consulted about how to solve the problems they face.
Harish Hande:
I think unfortunately for many, many years, the development sector created an unfortunate hierarchy of thinking where we confused between intellectual poverty and financial poverty, and then romanticizing poverty and basically patronizing. So the question for us was, are you creating an ecosystem where the poor become partners rather than beneficiaries? Poor become innovators and entrepreneurs where they're part of the solution, and that way you are creating an equal platform, a level playing field, and long-term sustainability because you are bringing in that sense of ownership. Once a solution is done, they also say, "It's my solution, not a solution that was given." So breaking those myths of hierarchy was very critical, Audrey.
Audrey Choi:
So I think there's a lot of people who are very well-intentioned and who say, "That sounds great, but how do you actually do it? How do you walk into a community and have that kind of empowerment and participation and partnership?"
Harish Hande:
The issue is how do we unlearn some of the education that we have done, which inherently builds in a kind of hierarchy. And we have quite a bit of the colleagues who come in from the client base, who come in from the communities, are part of the organization, plus colleagues from outside who have to learn step-by-step how do you become part of the community. You don't teach, you learn. You don't actually tell them, you actually listen. You don't actually put in a solution, but you actually, together, involve a solution, and that takes time.
Audrey Choi:
I think this is a really important point. Building these relationships, recruiting from within the community, and listening first, it all takes time. You can't rush into those solutions. You know, Harish, I always remember one of the early times that I met you at a World Economic Forum event, and you've just given a really inspiring talk. And afterwards, there were all these people crowding around you and complimenting you, and you said to them, "Yeah, thank you. But the only reason you're complimenting me is not because I'm the most brilliant person from India on this topic, it's just because I happen to speak English and so I get invited to a place like this."
Harish Hande:
Exactly.
Audrey Choi:
That moment has always stuck with me. How do you see structural biases, like language, act as a barrier to great ideas?
Harish Hande:
Yeah. That I see, especially in the "English speaking countries" in the developing world where a lot of the ecosystems are English, the PowerPoints, the Excel, the equity documents, the shareholder documents, the semantics of innovation, breakeven, quarterly returns. Everything is English, right?
Audrey Choi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Harish Hande:
So 70% of the population who do not know English, but are brilliant in other languages, can be a Shakespeare of Swahili or a Shakespeare of Hindi, but he or she will never be able to convince impact investors or people who do philanthropic money because of people who manage those funds don't feel comfortable because that's an unknown entity. We are losing those innovators and entrepreneurs because of one small thing, a language of English. And that means that's at least 2 billion people in the world who are talented and systems need to change for them.
Audrey Choi:
Harish, I know you developed a special leadership program for non-English speakers. How is that changing the system?
Harish Hande:
So that's when we said, "Forget the English speaking world, let us create an incubation and innovation center inside Selco, which focuses on these innovators and entrepreneurs and give them the platform a typical, good English-speaking guy would have." So, we would be the middleman for that.
Audrey Choi:
Is there an example that you can think of something that's come out of those incubation centers that never would've been invented or thought of about otherwise?
Harish Hande:
I can immediately talk about, okay, when you have to do a rice milling, and if it's not on diesel, when the power goes off, you not only need a man to start the diesel engine, but you need a strong man to start the diesel engine. This was an issue that was brought in by the communities. We modified and created a solar powered rice mill, and switch of a button, the rice mill actually works leading to whole gender inclusivity in these innovations. None of this would've come in had we been just sitting in Delhi, Mumbai, [Dar 00:07:34], or Washington, this only came in because the problem was articulated by the communities.
Audrey Choi:
By listening to and partnering with the community, Selco does much more than provide affordable, clean energy. They improve sustainability on many levels, gender inclusivity, talent development, and economic stability.
Audrey Choi:
Thousands of miles away, indigenous communities on coast of Alaska are working on a business plan[2] with equally big goals, restore the Marine ecosystem and create sustainable economic growth and food security. To overcome decades of overfishing, pollution, and more recently, climate change, they're turning to one of their traditional foods, kelp, a type of seaweed that grows in shallow, nutrient-rich salt water.
Dune Lankard:
We would have a native saying that when the tide was out, your table was set. Then we would go down to the ocean and find the kelp beds and grandma would show us the type of kelp that she wanted. We would just fill our buckets and then we'd bring it home and wash it all and then hang it to dry, and then we'd be able to eat it all summer.
Audrey Choi:
Dune Lankard is Eyak Athabascan from the Copper River Delta and Prince William Sound, Alaska.
Dune Lankard:
And my Eyak name is Jamachakih, and Jamachakih means little bird that screams really loud and won't shut up. And I received that name because I realized that I had to be louder than everything else, yet remain this voice of reason so people would listen.
Audrey Choi:
Dune has always made a living on the water, fishing herring and salmon. But these days, as president and founder of The Native Conservancy, he's traveling all over Alaska listening to indigenous communities and sharing a blueprint for an ocean future built around farming kelp.
Dune Lankard:
You don't have to fertilize it. You don't have to water it. It has over a dozen vitamins, possesses 10 times[3] more calcium than milk. You can make fertilizers[4], compost[5], animal feed[6]. They found that if you took 2% of kelp and added it to animal feed and fed it to cows, it could reduce our emissions by 50% to 60%[7], which is huge. You can make bioplastics[8], biofuels[9]. And because it's one of the fastest growing organisms[10], 18 to 24 inches a day, if you do it right, you can get paid to watch kelp grow.
Audrey Choi:
And more and more people want to do just that. While the numbers vary, there's no doubt the global seaweed market is growing. One estimate put its market value at more than $16 billion[11] as of 2020.
Audrey Choi:
Right now, most of the farms are based in China[12], and most of the consumption happens across Asia[13]. But that's changing as consumers and corporations all over the world, and increasingly along the coast of Alaska, tap into its many benefits. But Dune believes indigenous communities should be managing this natural resource because living in balance is part of their traditional values and customary use of the land and water. They also take a systems view to understanding the key role that kelp plays in a healthy ecosystem.
Audrey Choi:
It's a critical habitat[14] for many species, including Pacific herring, another traditional food and income source. The herring lay their eggs, or roe, on the kelp and tribes and fishermen have harvested it for generations.
Dune Lankard:
We always knew how well the herring was spawning by seeing how much roe was actually spawned on the kelp. And so, we always grew up revering the kelp because we knew that as long as the roe was strong and healthy that the herring would always return home.
Audrey Choi:
But the herring haven't been strong and healthy for a long time.
Dune Lankard:
The biggest thing was the Exxon Valdez's oil spill.
Audrey Choi:
The Exxon Valdez's oil spill, in March 1989, contaminated 1300 miles[15] of Alaskan coastline and set off a chain reaction, damaging and killing fish, wildlife, and livelihoods.
Dune Lankard:
Prior to 1989, we would have 200,000 ton[16] of herring returning annually to Prince William Sound, and it dropped down to as low as 4,000 ton[17]. And I haven't had herring, roe, and kelp since 1989 from Prince William Sound.
Audrey Choi:
The herring fishery in Prince William Sound has been closed for 30 of the 33 years[18] since the spill. This meant many indigenous and small commercial fishers lost their herring fishery livelihoods. In recent years, herring numbers have been rising, but they're suffering from disease and parasites[19]. Many like Dune believe it's because of the lingering impacts of the oil spill.
Dune Lankard:
And then, 25 years later, we have now climate change that we're having to deal with on many levels, from ocean acidification to ocean rise to ocean warming. At some point, our subsistence way of life, which is directly intrinsically tied to the health of the ocean, will change to the point where we're going to have to become dependent upon other food sources. And so I realized at that point that I needed to start being proactive and try and figure out how we're going to feed ourselves. If we can't feed ourselves and we can't protect that food sovereignty, then what are we doing? How are we going to make it?
Audrey Choi:
Which is where kelp comes in. It's a food source and a chance to create indigenous-led regenerative businesses where jobs and profits stay in the community.
Dune Lankard:
The big factories of seafood corporations, we call them The Bigs, The Bigs are already trying to permit 1,000 acre[20] mega farms. As a commercial fisherman my entire life since I was five years old, I've been owned by The Bigs. They've owned us for 150 years, and I really don't think that that should be the next chapter.
Audrey Choi:
Dune believes local indigenous knowledge of kelp and the role it plays in the ecosystem is the best way to avoid the mistakes of the past when the oil spill and an extraction mindset upset the delicate web of marine life. And because kelp is also incredibly powerful at sequestering carbon and fighting ocean acidification[21], Dune thinks that in the right hands, indigenous hands, kelp can actually be harvested sustainably and help restore the environment. It could bring back the ailing herring fishery, an outcome that would benefit everyone and the wildlife impact by the spill.
Dune Lankard:
Because there's about 350 species[22] that make a living in those kelp forests and the herring, if there's any chance that the herring would spawn on our kelp farms in colder, cooler, cleaner waters, they would have a better chance and the survival rate would go up. And maybe one day, it would warrant a subsistence fishery or even a commercial one.
Audrey Choi:
But long before that can happen, indigenous fishers have to get set up for kelp farming.
Dune Lankard:
There's over a dozen barriers to entry that a lot of indigenous peoples in communities are not going to be able to overcome without support. The biggest question is, how are you going to finance this farm? And so our Native Conservancy right now is looking at partnerships.
Audrey Choi:
Partnerships that would offer indigenous kelp farmers long-term, low-interest, deferred loans to source the wild seed and purchase the equipment they need to get their kelp farms in the water.
Dune Lankard:
And we have this wonderful opportunity to be a part of the restoration of our planet, But everything has to be done in moderation and with as much expertise as possible, so bringing in that local and indigenous knowledge will make the difference.
Audrey Choi:
Dune's right. There's mounting evidence that local and indigenous knowledge does make a difference. In 2018, an international group of researchers[23] conducted the first ever survey of lands managed by indigenous people. They defined management as the process of determining how land and resources get used and developed. Sometimes land management is enshrined in law and sometimes it's de facto or contested, but here's where it gets interesting.
Audrey Choi:
The researchers found that although they make up only around 5% of the world's population, indigenous people manage more than a quarter of the world's land, much of a home to the most biodiverse, undeveloped, and healthy ecosystems[24]. We're talking about places like Prince William Sound in Alaska, the Amazon Rainforest, Arctic tundra, tropical forests, and savannas in Central and Southern Africa. Until recently, we haven't accurately valued these areas for the economic services they provide local and globally.
Audrey Choi:
Another study[25] found that the Amazon rainforest in Brazil, just Brazil, contributes $8.2 billion per year to the Brazilian economy through food production, specifically Brazil nuts, and raw materials like rubber and timber. Then there are the benefits that extend far beyond on Brazil's borders, carbon sequestration, and climate regulation. Of that $8 billion, some $3 billion[26] is generated from indigenous lands, protected areas, and zones designated for sustainable use. But to keep delivering these benefits, the Amazon and other powerhouse ecosystems need to be left intact or carefully managed.
Audrey Choi:
And if indigenous land management has proven to be very effective, what can we do to support these communities, especially when they're facing immense pressures from development and climate change? Adriana Ramos has seen that pressure increasing for indigenous groups in the Brazilian rainforest.
Adriana Ramos:
So in many situations, especially when we see the areas where deforestation increases based on illegal activities, there is a lot of pressure over the indigenous territories, and there is a lot of violence.
Audrey Choi:
Adriana works as an advisor for Brazil's Instituto Socioambiental[27], also known as ISA. It's a nonprofit that is working to create more security for the indigenous people of Brazil by helping them demonstrate that there's value in their traditional way of managing the forest.
Adriana Ramos:
Indigenous peoples have been looking for partners to develop economic projects based on their traditional way of using the land and the resources.
Audrey Choi:
Adriana holds up an example of one of those projects, a jar of spices.
Adriana Ramos:
I have another product here in my hands, which is the Baniwa pepper, that is produced by the indigenous people, Baniwa, from the Northwest of Brazil. It's mainly made by indigenous women and they make this spice that's been very famous in most restaurants in Brazil.
Audrey Choi:
One of the biggest challenges when it comes to getting Amazonian goods to market is logistics, how to actually get products from inside the rainforest to the outside world. As Adriana explains it, communities often produce products in small batches, but that doesn't meet the needs of companies looking to buy in large quantities. And that's where ISA comes in.
Adriana Ramos:
So we connect different ethnic groups in different territories, and we join all of them together so that they can negotiate their Brazil nuts with a big company in Brazil that buys it. So whenever we do that, we are putting together different communities to find a common solution that we will strength all of them so that you can have the small production of each community, and then get some scale in terms of commercialization.
Audrey Choi:
This model gives communities autonomy over their products and a say in how they negotiate and deal with buyers, and it allows buyers to give market knowledge and technological support back to Amazonian suppliers as well. Adriana says this model also gives communities a chance to share the story behind the products themselves.
Adriana Ramos:
So the nuts, for example, they have this label that says, "Produced by indigenous people from the forest of Xingu." And then when you put your cell phone in the QR code, then you will see where is the community located, who are the people that did this, you will see photographs, you will see all the information about where does these nuts come from. It gives the connection between who is buying the nuts and the people that produced it.
Audrey Choi:
Connecting the Brazil nut producers in the Amazon to a global market is key. In the next year, the Brazil nut market is expected to grow by more than $18 million[28]. But without help from bridge programs like ISA, those producers might never have been able to tap into it. And by telling the story of the people and their traditional methods of harvesting or growing these products, Adriana says consumers also start paying attention to the preservation of the Amazon itself.
Adriana Ramos:
The world is asking us to keep the forest now because of the climate emergency. So, the climate emergency each time shows more what are the importance of these people and why they should be supported in the way they live so that they can keep the forest, which benefits all of us.
Audrey Choi:
Over the past few years, we've seen climate change accelerate and more and more people are being uprooted by fires, droughts, and floods. And when people are forced to rebuild or move, we risk losing their valuable knowledge and the ways in which they steward the land more sustainably.
Audrey Choi:
In India, Harish is very concerned about losing generational expertise to economic instability and the pressures of climate change. He points to cotton, sugar, and peanut farmers who've lost their farms to flooding or droughts. They end up moving to cities and working as taxi drivers and security guards.
Harish Hande:
Had they all had LinkedIn profiles, they would have been cotton expert, sugar cane expert, paddy experts. Now, you have de-skilled them from being a brilliant paddy farmer to a security guard at a villa, and that is a dangerous trend that is happening in the developing world. We talk about brain drain from the developing world to the developed world, but this is a knowledge drain that is happening internally in countries, primarily because of climate.
Audrey Choi:
And that knowledge drain is all the more worrying because Harish believes smallholder farmers already operate sustainably, they just need a little help to adapt to climate change.
Harish Hande:
You are keeping the jobs and livelihoods of many of the farmers if you just upgraded some of the systems they already had, and it's not going to cost much. A little bit of soil testing mechanisms, a little bit of knowledge of when the monsoons are going to fall, and helping them with better cropping patterns.
Audrey Choi:
Harish believes keeping these local experts in place creates big returns for the communities and sustainable economies that grow around them. It creates economic opportunity in rural areas and avoids putting pressure on cities that aren't prepared for a large influx of people whose skills and knowledge are undervalued.
Harish Hande:
Leading to frustrations and social unsustainability, leading to crime rates. None of the urban areas have been able to create social sustainability between the poor and rich, and that is where sustainable energy and poverty linkage becomes very powerful leading to social and environmental sustainability.
Audrey Choi:
One of the key lessons of this episode and this season is that there are many opportunities to rethink our systems and habits and shift them towards sustainable growth. We've seen how investing in bees, trees, soap, concrete, and soil could help us create healthier, more balanced ecosystems and markets. But can we also take the time to build a more inclusive conversation to listen to, to learn from, and to partner with local and indigenous experts? When we invest in their knowledge, we all win.
Audrey Choi:
We named this podcast At Scale because we need to create solutions big enough to address our sustainability challenges at a systemic level. After listening to those stories, perhaps you'll pause and think about your own choices as a consumer, an investor, or decision maker of any kind. When we understand how our success, on every level, is connected to the health of the planet we live on, then we can start to scale solutions and generate meaningful, impactful change.
Audrey Choi:
I'm Audrey Choi, CEO of the Morgan Stanley Institute for Sustainable Investing. This season was brought to you by the Global Sustainable Finance Group and produced by Pacific Content. Thanks to Executive Producer Chris Boyce, Showrunner Tori Allen, Producer Miriam Johnson, Writer Farhan Akhtar, and Sound Designers, Robin Edgar and Mark [Angley 00:25:21].
Audrey Choi:
You can visit morganstanley.com/sustainableinvesting to learn more about my work with the Global Sustainable Finance Group. Thanks for listening.
